The Hartsock Agency

When I’m speaking to groups I often start out by saying, “Hello, my name is Nettie and I’m a Web dinosaur.” I’ve been on the Web since 1998. Want to see what it was like then? Go to this link.

It’s astounding to me how long the “long tail” has really grown on the Web and what a short amount of time it’s taken to get to where it is now. I was lucky enough as an online journalist to have worked prior to the dotcom burst and after it, and I’ve witnessed astounding changes in that time.

I’m also spending more time thinking about how social media has impacted the Web and what it can and cannot do for you. My focus is how it can help individual platforms. I do think that if you’re not participating on some level using Web 2.0 tools you are missing a conduit for real engagement and outreach.

I also think we should be wise and wary and careful about drinking all the Web 2.0 kool-aid and going full force without really understanding which tools will work best for us.

I came across this recent Business Week article titled, “Beware of Social Media Snake Oil” and I think it makes some very good points. If you read through the whole article, you’ll find a reference to “The Cluetrain Manifesto” which has influenced many Web marketing consultants and is still an extremely valuable book.

With that in mind, I thought I would post this interview I did with David Weinberger, one of the authors of the book. This is the first of a series of interviews I will post occasionally under the Classic Interview headline and most of them were conducted from 2000 to 2002.

The timeframe was one of the most interesting in Web history and marked both the best and the worst of the dotcom frenzy.

2001 – Classic Interview: David Weinberger

by Nettie Hartsock, February 2001 (Ibiz)

Part 1: “The Cluetrain Manifesto” and conversations

Nettie: Do you still play “Quake”?

David: Yes. And as continued practicing improves my skills, the continued aging process removes them.

Nettie: Do you think the presidential websites had an impact on this year’s election and, if so, how?

David: The Republicans were apparently quite successful in raising money on their site. But, at least as important, political websites – like commercial ones – train people to expect to get complete and full information that just a few years ago would have required much more effort. Now, does having more information at your fingertips make you a more informed voter? Judging from the outcome, apparently not.

 Nettie: Tell us how you came to write “The Cluetrain Manifesto” with your other well-known co-authors?

David: The four authors had been talking via email and phone calls about why the media were, in our opinion, so wrong about the Web. We discovered that we agreed with one another in interesting ways, each approaching the issue from a different point of view. So we put up ClueTrain.com hoping to express some of what a lot of people on the Web were feeling.

Nettie: What does it mean that “markets are conversations” and “businesses are conversations”?

David: The old business model says a market is the demographic slices you can reach by broadcasting to it. A market in this view is the lowest common denominator of statistical information. But markets used to be much more than this. They used to be places people went to shop, to talk, to exchange news. And now, thanks to the Web, markets are once again becoming real groups of people with real names and real voices.

We find one another on the Web and talk about the products that matter to us. Likewise, all of the real work of business is accomplished through conversations at meetings, in the hallways, over intranets. Constant talk.

Nettie: Why doesn’t it work on the Web for a business to talk in jingles?

David: Because we’re not sitting there passively, waiting for the next show to come on. We’re not captives.

Nettie: What is the most important issue to consider in marketing to your customers on the Web?

David: Ack. Just one? I’m having trouble deciding among “Tell the truth,” “Let people talk in their own voice,” “Drive out fear,” “You’re not the center of your customers’ universe,” and “Don’t be a jerk.”

Nettie: Why are customers desperate for stories?

David: Because we want to understand, and the richest understanding is through stories. Stories show how events unfold, how the end is contained in the beginning. And stories are always told by a real person in her or his own voice. They’re the opposite of the jingles you just mentioned.

Nettie: How should the conversations that occur between business and customers via e-mail or the customer feedback page be viewed by a company?

David: Customers and their conversations aren’t assets of the company. They’re not owned by the company. But they’re of tremendous value to the company. (These conversations don’t only occur via email or feedback pages.) Customer conversations tell the truth about the company. They’re passionate. And more and more, networked markets know more about the products than the company ever could. So, learning how to participate, as humans, in these conversations is of tremendous importance. The trick is that you have to really do it as a human, and not as a marketing ‘droid dressed up like a human, or like a Marketing Professional out to manipulate the conversation.

Part 2: Stop pretending and talk without fear…

Nettie: Tell us why it’s a good thing that the Web is always going to be “a little broken” as Berners-Lee has said?

David: Because every large structure is. And every human being is. We’re fallible, wee creatures and what we build is always at least a little bit broken. Recognizing and accepting that fallibility is liberating. Yet most companies insist on being “anal-perfective,” pretending that everything they do is perfect.

Nettie: Can “traditional” companies stop pretending and become fearless enough to have “real” conversations with their employees and their customers? Do you think the change will be embraced by the companies ultimately when the bottom line is at stake?

David: Yes and yes. The fact is that businesses are made of people, and people are much more complex than org charts. Without its “social networks,” a business literally can’t move, much less succeed. And you’re right to put this in terms of fear. So much of the structure of business is built around fear of employees and fear of customers.

Nettie: Will universal broadband contribute further to the demand for “real” conversation?

David: We already have “real” conversations every day on the Web, unless by “real” you mean “face-to-face.” I’ve made friends and kept in touch with old friends by email. Those conversations are real. Some people will prefer to use video or voice instead of email, but email will continue to be an important new way people talk with one another. Email is here to stay.

Nettie: What is the role of a CEO or CMO in a hyperlinked organization?

David: To help the company be smart. Companies are smart not because they have lots of data or lots of smart individuals but because they have smart conversations happening all over the place, crossing all the organizational boundaries, including with customers.

Nettie: In three years time, in your opinion,  are companies going to be if they continue to stay in a state of denial about the power of the Internet and the need for “conversations”.

David: If they continue to view the Web as a very slow broadcast medium, they will at best be ignored, and at worst treated with the contempt they’re showing to their customers.

Nettie: Does the book have a large following of established CEO’s who are embracing its ideas?

David: Lots of senior managers, including CEOs of Fortune 100 companies, have read the book, had one or more of the authors in to talk, given out copies of the book to their teams, and so forth. But the book very purposefully stays away from giving lists of things to do or programs that can be “embraced” and that will “work” for a company.

The book says: This is the most exciting and promising time any of us have lived through. Stop reading business books and go out and invent!

 Nettie: Thanks for the conversation, David!